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Stephen Perrera Send User a Message
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6/6/2008
9:49:45 AM 
Laminate; Swollen Seams

I've seen alot of swollen seams in laminate floors lately and ever increasing amounts. Anyone eelse notice this?
I think the invention of the click vs the ole gluein method was a bad idea that allows more water intrusion into the seams, even with the wax they apply to the edges.
Some people just don't know what "damp" mop means.

What do some claims from manufactures say about water damage?


Hugh Scott Send User a Message
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6/6/2008
10:16:32 AM 
Wilsonart

I put some wilsonart in my house, the tap together style I have seams peaking all over the place and they on the opposite side of room from the sink in the kitchen.I will posting a claim for replecament I paid 2.40 per ft for this stuff my cost.I will never sell it to my clients.
Expansion is proper is from a top cleaning but I have been sure to tell my wife and daughters the pros and cons of cleaning laminate, they know.
I know it is drastic floor failure.


Stephen Perrera Send User a Message
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6/6/2008
7:26:14 PM 

How are they cleaning it? Spot cleaner, damp mop, wet swiffer or swiffer machine?


Ray Darrah Send User a Message
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6/7/2008
7:49:10 AM 

Stephen,
Stop urinating on your laminate floor...

Not accusing you of anything,,, just trying to give you a little hint.


Stephen Perrera Send User a Message
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6/7/2008
11:30:36 AM 

Wow, such an intelligent response. I can't seem to figure out how to respond to that.

Remember the guy at Fred's forum who worked for a laminate manufacture.....I got paper copy of those responses of his to me about water intrusion into seams with a glue-in product.

He kept saying that seams were waterproof if the glue squished out of the seam. I told him it was no totally waterproof and show me a microscopic picture of any seam edge that didn't have some little gaps where the water can get in after wiping the glue off as it dishes it out of the seam. He wouldn't post a pic and got all butt hurt.
Heck I have a microscope of my own.

Anyway's....off track but the point is that making the lam a friendlier DIY product....with the invention of the click gets more sales sure but is it a better product when it comes to water intrusion into seams?

I woulda thought that improving the seam integrity was the road they woulda shoulda taken.


Ray Darrah Send User a Message
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6/8/2008
3:02:02 PM 

Good response Stephen. I have more questions that answers because:
1. Floating floors must be allowed to move. By that I mean move with foot traffic, up and down.
- This is why glued floors failed. Glued did not allow for movement and the glue would fracture, then allow moisture penetration.
movement: If a hard surface flooring moves, it cracks. Ceramic tile cracks, Vinyl tiles even crack when they are allowed to move with foot traffic.
2. Therefore: Locking mechanisms must accomodate movement.
3. AND: movement without making noises.
4. Tongue and groove sides must be waxed to minimize water penetration. TOO MUCH and you get wicking onto the laminate surface.

I'm thinking that producing a locking mechanism and making it water resistant is not nearly as simple a thing as one may suggest.


Stephen Perrera Send User a Message
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6/8/2008
8:40:24 PM 

I do alot of floating hardwood out here and do not see this problem in that product.


Hugh Scott Send User a Message
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6/8/2008
8:49:42 PM 

Sorry Stephen I did not see your reply.

Damp mop very little moisture.They know the drill.

In reference to the glue comments how many time did that glue create hyraulic pressure and cause seam peaking I saw it a lot.

Some say the manufactures went to locking style because of the haze left form glue applications.

Some say it was due the the instability of the glue. IE: high moisture content.shelf life etc.

Others say it was becuase they wanted a floor that the everyday man could install without having the strap it down, the DIYRs.

I think all three apply


Stephen Perrera Send User a Message
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6/8/2008
8:53:34 PM 

My first Pergo gluein is still performing. I did it in a friends house probably twelve years ago. He has had two huge Dobermans, two minature Dobermans and lots of family, kids running around. No peaked seams, looks great.


Hugh Scott Send User a Message
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6/8/2008
8:56:26 PM 

and 0% humidity there in AZ.

They should have tested the first laminates in Key west Smile


Ray Darrah Send User a Message
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6/8/2008
9:24:16 PM 
are they glued?

Are you talking about glued or glueLess?

I see glue failures in Glued Floating floors.


Jerry Thomas Send User a Message
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6/9/2008
5:53:44 AM 

If you are seeing movement the substrate was not flattened adequately. Gluing up joints has nothing to do with that aspect.


Ray Darrah Send User a Message
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6/9/2008
6:41:04 AM 

are you saying there is Zero movement with foot traffic ?


Hugh Scott Send User a Message
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6/9/2008
10:19:50 AM 

Ray I have argued the same point on the FCI board about the flex allowed in the snaps locks. It was pointless to try and educate a certain degree of installer.

This flex has an intended purpose to the betterment of the floor.

Think about the intended use of laminate:
It was orginally designed to be overlaid any floor to reduce floor prep and to keep the floor under it in pristine condition.

In Europe the flats that people rent do not come with upgrades, if they want an upgrade they do it themselves. The orgins of laminates were to be overlaid on existing floors and then could be taken with them when they left the flat.

Now things have changed drastically since the first introduction of laminates to America. This concept still applies in many parts of Europe.

We do things different on our side of the pond.
We are innovaters,explorers, we ask all the questions search out the answers and many times learn by trial and error.

I learned laminates about when they first came to America in the early 90s. I was living in Lousianna and the humdity impeded the laminates so bad down there it was a hard sell.
I was at the first introduction of Manningtons Witex, Armstrongs Imagine. We would gather a local seafood shop Steamboat Bills it is right off I-10 in Lake Charles if you are ever down that way stop in and try some of the food.

One the guys giving the seminars was the guy from Armstrong that spoke to through a synthesizer.I forget his name I am sure some of you know him.
He was well spoke of in the trade circles.

The problem with the boards was the absobrtion rate of moisture due to the high humidty in the south, the floors were failing right and left.

Witex had a very dense board, the Imagine line was dense as will but the most dense board of that time frame was Wilsonart.
I liked the Wilsonart and since Sears had an exclusive on it I installed it for 3 years.
I refused to install Pergo but I would do pergo repairs, it seemed 3 out every 5 pergo floors failed and it was mostly due to humidity.

I would install the Witex form time to time but they used a lot Jamestown engineered down south that I will save for another thread.


Stephen Perrera Send User a Message
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6/9/2008
10:31:09 AM 

Aks yourselves these questions and write a conclusion:

Why should humidity have an effect on flooring failures if the flooring is accliamated properly?

Are glued products less suseptable to rh and moisture intrusion along the seams as clicks?

Why should zero rh down here be any better for laminates than say Lousiana?

Why would a product....engineered or laminate or solid have problems with fitting if accliameted properly and the wood allowed to gain moisture to its ambient conditions gradually and uniformly?


Hugh Scott Send User a Message
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6/9/2008
10:50:40 AM 

1)The effects of humidity on the floor have long since been controlled with moisture blocking add ons. (so they say)

2)Glued products can produce as many problems as the snaplock. I can see the arguemnet that the glued product will repel a degree of moisture that is why many manufacturs still advise glue in areas prone to moisture like bathrooms and kitchens in front of dishwashers.

Question 3 is coverd by question 1

4)It would mean there is a milling issue.


Stephen Perrera Send User a Message
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6/9/2008
1:52:59 PM 

I can see the arguemnet that the glued product will repel a degree of moisture that is why many manufacturs still advise glue in areas prone to moisture like bathrooms and kitchens in front of dishwashers.



Your a smart fellow Hugh. Excellent answer.


Ray Darrah Send User a Message
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6/9/2008
3:26:02 PM 

1. Floating floors are designed with movement at the joints in mind. If it does not move with body weight, something will eventually break.
2. Humidity in LousyAnna ( I lived in Denham Springs until 2003 ) caused cupping and expansion until the manufacturers put another backing on the laminate planks to give it an Engineered quality and balance.
3. The old laminates had the core and the melamine top only and was not as stable in design as todays product.
4. Glued products failed because of glue fracture caused by movement at the joints. Placing your foot at the joints cause movement and glued was not designed to allow for movement. Once fractured, water was allowed to enter and swell the joint edges. I wonder if they had waxed the tongue/groove, then glued the floor if that would have resolved the issues.
I'm guessing that is why they wax and seal the tongue/groove on glued products today...

what do you think Stephen...??


Stephen Perrera Send User a Message
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6/9/2008
11:36:41 PM 

That would depend on the type of glue used and flatness of the substrate.

Fact is that if the manufactures spec glued in wet areas now, it means thet the glued plank method is superior to the click method for moisture intrusion.


Jerry Thomas Send User a Message
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6/10/2008
5:00:43 AM 

The correct adhesives like WA blue fusion and Mannington's Mega Glue are flexible and stay flexible for the life of the floor. Substrate flatness is paramount.

Inspectors should be 10 times more educated on this subject rather than an installer who just gets a glued laminated job here and there.



Last Edited 6/10/2008
5:35:10 AM

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